This article was compiled and edited from correspondence and a chat session between Metta Zetty, a teacher of Nonduality at Awakening into Awareness, and Ku Ye, a Chan (Zen) Buddhist teacher at Nanhua, a Center for Chan Buddhist Studies in Spain. Here is a rare opportunity to learn from two teachers of Nonduality as they discuss some of the most important and fundamental questions about spirituality.
Deep Sleep, Awareness
And The Great Mystery
A Conversation Between Metta Zetty and Ku Ye
Ku Ye: Where does awareness come from, and where is it during deep sleep?
Metta: My experience is that Awareness is the Source (or Space) within which all other things arise. Beyond Awareness as the Background itself, I know no other source....
Many sages claim that Awareness remains alert and present through all stages of consciousness -- including waking, dreaming and deep sleep. Even if we are not conscious of Awareness in deepest sleep, our own experience verifies this truth for when the name of the sleeper is called out, the sleeper hears and responds....
Ku Ye: To be honest, I have to say your answer has surprised me a lot. If we are Awareness, how can it be that we are not conscious of Awareness in deep sleep?
Metta: It is important to recognize that I make a distinction between:
- consciousness,
- Awareness, and
- the conscious memory of Awareness.
Perhaps this is where the confusion lies?
For more information on the distinction between the first two items, please review the following reflections:
As for the consciousness of Awareness in deep sleep, most of us are not conscious of it and do not have conscious memory of this Awareness.
But, that does not mean that this Awareness does not exist. Many have experienced this uninterrupted state of Awareness, either as a result of Awakening, or through a cultivation of mindfulness during sleep. It is to this unbroken continuing of Awareness which I believe the sages are referring, and Its presence is not predicated upon the conscious memory of It after the fact.
I hope this helps to provide a bit of clarification. Also, I have included, below, a description of Awareness and its relationship to deep sleep that I thought might be of interest:
"So, the thought arose, 'the body has to rest,' and I...closed my eyes, and this Awareness just fell into this...tunnel. It just relaxed and became merged with this dark infinite Awareness. And there was nothing. There was just Awareness of the Void. Nothing. Black...I guess it was dreamless sleep, and THAT'S WHAT I WAS.
"Then the morning came, and Awareness started to come back out of the Void. It was like the dawn of creation. The first thing coming out of that Void was sound. Then comes a sense of energy, and you begin to see motions and lights. Then you're awake again, your body is moving. And this is where it started to get a little disorienting, because how could I know who I am? There is no 'I'. Andrea is gone. But I am. Pure Awareness is. Emptiness is. Yes, now I'm back in the world again, and I think I'm over here looking at you over there. How can this possibly be?
"Then awareness is saying, 'But it isn't. That's not true. You are. Being is. Emptiness is!'"
Excerpted from: Breaking Through...A Journey to Awakening: An Interview with Andrea Pucci
Ku Ye: I'm not interested in awakening because awakening
happened some time ago. However, I love to share this experience in order to know how different
people have rationalized awakening.
Metta:
(1) I am interested in knowing more about the circumstances surrounding your experience, Ku Ye, if there is more you would care to share...?
(2) Also, by "rationalized" do you mean explained?
(3) And, may I also ask: why is awakening no longer of interest to you?
Ku Ye: (1) Sure. There is no problem. I have been on the Chan Buddhist path since I was 7 or 8. I lived in different monasteries; I practiced different things. I was looking for awakening, but nothing seemed to work.
Metta: May I ask, how did you become involved with Chan at such an early age?
Ku Ye: I didn't like what my life was supposed to be. I reflected, and I didn't like what I saw. I saw myself spending some years studying in order to get a good job, then getting married and having children, then working and working until I was too old for working, then some free time with different illnesses and death.
I said to myself: "There must be something more in life. I don't want to live this life. It is awful." I went to my city public library and I found Chan.
Metta: This is a profoundly significant insight for a child of 7 or 8! I am impressed....Were your parents supportive of your decision?
Ku Ye: Yes, it was a very early age. My mother was afraid for me, but my father encouraged me to follow my heart. They were so kind....
[During this period in my life], of course, I experienced many spiritual things, but all this didn't interest me at all.
One day, after a whole week of a deep crisis, asking myself what more to do, blaming my bad luck, and with a question that I wasn't able to remove from my head, "Who am I? What part of me is not subject to karma?", I laid down on my bed and I started to look for myself: "That is not me, this is not me", and everything fell down. There remained only pure awareness, or what in Dzogchen they call awareness of the voidness, or Base.
When Ku Ye woke up again, it was all so wonderful, I was laughing for days.
Metta: Beautiful, Ku Ye! Thank you for sharing....Your
account is reminiscent of the experiences of several others, including Eckhart Tolle and Ramana Maharshi.
Ku Ye: Then the peak experience moved into a valley experience. Since then I remain in awareness, except in deep sleep when awareness is not [present].
Ku Ye: (2) Yes, by "rationalized awakening" I mean "explained." I feel there is no single right way to explain it.
Metta: I agree with you, Ku Ye, for 2 reasons: our words are limited and they are simply a reflection of our own individual experience, which represents only one particular perspective on this vast, infinite Reality.
Ku Ye: For example, in Manifestation-Only Buddhist School,
they say that in deep sleep our mind consciousness takes a rest. This is a good explanation. I like their system; it's useful. However, in Dzogchen they said that awareness is one of the three
characteristics of the Base. This is also a good explanation, and it's useful too. Which are right? Both, neither.
Metta: (smiling) Both and neither: a good answer. In
my own experience, I can comfortably settle with "Both" in as much as I make a semantic distinction between mind consciousness and Awareness.
Perhaps this would be helpful context for our chat? For more information, please see the following links:
Ku Ye: In your web site you seem to use "Awareness" in
different senses. Sometimes you seem to use "Awareness" for the Great Mystery, Great Void, Alaya or whatever you want to call it, and sometimes you seem to use "Awareness" for pure consciousness. I'm not clear about your terminology.
Metta: Yes, clarifying terms will be important. (See the links provided above.)
Although I use Awareness and consciousness as pointers toward 2 different dynamics of human
experience, for our purposes now, let's assume that when I use the term "Awareness" it refers to what you call "pure consciousness."
Is that incompatible with it also being the "Great Mystery", "Great Void", etc.?
Also, your mention of "Base" suggests a familiarity with Tibetan and/or Dzog Chen teachings? Is this part of your background and experience, Ku Ye?
Ku Ye: I have never practiced under a Dzogchen master. I have been in the Chan path since many years ago. In fact, I was given master title. However, my mind is philosophical, and I like to study all this stuff. It helps me to help my students.
Metta: I understand and share your interest/orientation.
Ku Ye: I like to think that the Base gives rise to different phenomena, including consciousness -- a special kind of phenomena because it doesn't experience any change and it doesn't belong to time or space.
Metta: Well said! I agree completely....
Ku Ye: If I have to say something about where or how
consciousness is born, I can only say it is a Great Mystery.
Metta: Agreed, again -- absolutely.
Ku Ye: (3) Why is awakening no longer of interest to me?
Because awakening is so simple, so ordinary. It's wonderful, but there is nothing you can say about it. You live it all the time, so why talk about it?
Metta: (smiling) I understand, and I suspected this is what you meant.
Talking about it certainly is not necessary. However, for me there can be value in the
conversation for two simple reasons:
- Pointing toward this Awareness can be helpful to others seeking a recognition or acknowledgement of It.
- Contentment with this Awareness, as it is, is the solution to the world's restlessness.
Ku Ye: I fully agree. :-)
Ku Ye: In my humble opinion, the fact with deep sleep and awakening is that we are always talking from an inference. I mean that when we talk about deep sleep, we are not talking from a direct experience. We always talk from reasoning.
For an experience to be an experience, awareness needs to be present. In deep sleep awareness is not [present], so we can't speak from direct experience.
Metta: It may be true that Awareness not appear to
be present when you and I are in deep sleep.
However, there are sages who claim they are speaking from direct experience when they refer to continuity of Awareness during deep sleep. In light of this, I feel it is best to accept what they say at face value.When we do this, their comments can then become pointers toward a recognition of Awareness as the background for all experiences -- including deep sleep.
Ku Ye: To be honest, I can only talk from my own experience, so I talk from it.
Metta: Ultimately, you are absolutely right: this is all
that any of us can do.
Ku Ye: I can appreciate others' words, but I can't take them as truths.
Metta: Very wise.
Ku Ye: This is an old epistemological problem. I suppose all this is a problem of terminology.
Metta: Perhaps...or maybe this line of inquiry is actually
pointing to a very important distinction about the nature of Awareness during deep sleep...?
Ku Ye: For me, in deep sleep there is no consciousness, so no one can have a direct experience of deep sleep.
Metta: Here's the nuance for me, Ku Ye: just because my
conscious mind may not (now) recognize Awareness within deep sleep (notice I said Awareness, not
consciousness), this does not mean that it might not be possible for this recognition to occur.
Consider lucid dreaming as an example, for instance: it was not that long ago that Western psychologists claimed it was impossible to know you are dreaming while you are dreaming. However, Tibetan (and perhaps Chan?) Buddhists have known this for centuries.
I just want to be cautious now and not assert that something is not possible (or true) simply because the conscious mind has no memory or recognition of it.
Ku Ye: There is a meditative state that in Chan we call
"internal no-mind." This is very much like deep sleep+consciousness. In that state, there is
nothing but consciousness, but I can't call it an experience of deep sleep.
So for me, if someone wants to call "Awareness" the background for all, there is no problem, but that "Awareness" is only a metaphysical concept.
Metta: The only reason I use Awareness and Background
interchangeably is that, in my experience, perceptual Awareness is the Background and
basis for everything else -- including consciousness.
From my point of view, Awareness not conceptual at all; it is utterly and thoroughly experiential.
Ku Ye: Well, I would like to share with you how I understand
deep sleep. Sometimes I enter into the dream world. When I say now that "I enter" I mean that I'm pure awareness where dreams take shape. Sometimes I enter into deep sleep, but I don't like to call it "deep sleep" because then I'm presence for the Great Mystery, the source of "I am", the source of Presence and all the other phenomena.
When I am, I am always presence for something.
Metta: Exactly!! Your reference to being "Presence for
something" is beautiful language, Ku Ye, and it reminds me of Douglas Harding's description of being "headless empty space for the other".
Metta: I am puzzled by this statement because of something
you said in one of your earlier letters: "In deep sleep awareness is not [present]." Can you clarify?
Ku Ye: Yes, I'm going to try. What I call "deep sleep" is a state where there is no consciousness. However, some people call "deep sleep" a state where there is only pure consciousness, so it is in this last sense I say "I enter deep sleep" -- but it is not "deep sleep" in my terminology.
Metta: The question then (if I understand you correctly) is whether or not "deep sleep" is characterized by consciousness or Awareness, in some form or
other. Is this correct?
You say it is not, while others say it is?
Ku Ye: Yes, it is, because if there is a no state, or a state without consciousness, what happens to consciousness then?
Metta: Ah! So are you saying that "deep sleep" is an
inappropriate term because, in your experience, consciousness remains?
Ku Ye: Yes, that's right. :-)
Metta: Good! So, is there more to say or to ask now?
Ku Ye: Well, how do you see it? What is your experience or view about deep sleep?
Metta: My direct experience is that when I slip into deep sleep, consciousness of my surroundings and my personal identity disappear completely. There is also no memory attached to the experience of deep sleep.
Quite honestly, I infer the continuation of Awareness, based on my own experience.
(Consider, for example, the fact that while the mind is sleeping soundly, some form of
innate Awareness remains ever alert and vigilant, and then when your name is called, this Awareness triggers the mind's return to the waking state.)
Beyond this inference, though, there is nothing else I can say of deep sleep except that it is the place/space out of which all consciousness arises and into which all consciousness disappears.
I would also hasten to add, however, that wherever consciousness is found, it always appears within a field of undisturbed, unbroken Awareness. This consciousness is obviously not Infinite, but I can find no boundaries or limits upon the field of Awareness within which this consciousness arises.
Ku Ye: Dear Metta, thank you very much for your honesty. This is my own experience too: we have to infer Awareness. I think that's right. It is the Great Mystery. Thank you very much.
Metta: You are most welcome. I am glad if there is common ground for us in this.
Ku Ye: I would also like to ask you for your understanding of "intention" or "volition." How do you explain the use of intention for the rediscovery our true nature? This is my second point of interest about sharing awakening, for many people have given different answers.
Metta: Intention is crucial in as much as it provides the fuel for dispelling our mistaken sense of identity.
Intention is inadequate until and unless this mistaken sense of identity is clarified.
Ku Ye: I would like to know: who do you think is using
intention in order to dispel illusion until we know who we really are?
Metta: The most honest answer is to say that intention simply arises, and it is usually linked to personal identity. But the arising of intention, like the arising of Awareness, is also a Great Mystery.
What I do know, based on experience, is that when intention arises, it creates movement -- a flow of energy through space and time -- toward clearer understanding, and as that flow continues, the mistaken sense of identity gradually begins to fall away.
In my experience, this is the ultimate pattern of revelation as the finite gives way to the
Infinite.
Ku Ye: Thank you very much, Metta. I think your view is very interesting. Thank you for your sharing.
So can you teach people to practice mindfulness in order to help intention grow?
Metta: It certainly can be done, but it is not necessary, just as it is not necessary to talk about Awakening. Everything happens naturally -- including this
process of revelation.
This is because it is the fundamental nature of the finite to give way to the Infinite. We do not need to "help" it along. However, we may choose to, and that's fine, too. In the end, everything contributes to this Revelation.
Ku Ye: I fully agree. :-)
What do you think starts the intention to dispel the illusion?
Metta: LOL! The same thing that started the illusion -- the same thing that started Creation -- that wonderful Great Mystery about which we have been speaking. :-)
Ku Ye: LOL! :-)
Metta: This is also the same magnificent Grace that, in the end, triggers the experience of Realization.
However, on a more practical level, the intention arises as "I" (the personal identity) begin to bump into the limitations of the finite.
Because our deepest nature is Infinite, we are compelled to move beyond these limitations. This is why I include the following quotation on the opening page of my web site, Awakening into Awareness:
"The spirit of man is inseparable from the
Infinite, and can be satisfied with nothing
less than the Infinite." -- James Allen
Ku Ye: It's a pleasure to talk with you. I don't know many people to talk to about this.
Metta: Nor do I, Ku Ye -- except through AIA. The privilege
and pleasure is mine, most assuredly! Have I been clear in what I have said so far?
Ku Ye: Sure, it's a pleasure to read you. You are very clear. I think you have thought much about the right terminology.
Metta: (smiling) You're absolutely right about the terminology, Ku Ye. The use of words took on a whole new meaning for me (pardon the pun) after the epiphany.
I realized that everything I would say and do following this experience would be a
translation of it through my own perceptual filter, and I have spent a lot of time working with and thinking about the words I choose. Thank you for your insight in acknowledging the importance of our terminology and use of language.
Ku Ye: I would like to know: what do you think about ethical trainings? In reply, to one of your questions, I act as Chan master with a growing sangha around the world.
Metta: (nodding) It would be an honor to sit at your feet some day in Spain. I hope life affords us this opportunity some day.
Ku Ye: It's not necessary to sit at my feet. To take a cup of tea can be more interesting. I don't like guru game, you know. :-)
Metta: (smiling) Understood -- and agreed -- completely. Tea is definitely best!
As for ethical trainings: they are quite valuable if/when they help us understand our accountability for our own choices and actions. The teachings can, however, become self-limiting if they are too prescriptive about how we should live our lives.
The choices are ours...and the accountability is ours. Ethical training simply helps us
understand this.
Ku Ye: I would like to share with you my view on them, if you want.
Metta: Absolutely! Please continue.
Ku Ye: I think that when we observe our actions and we discover they are based on illusion, it is a great opportunity to awaken. Ethical trainings are a wonderful tool that helps us to detect illusion before and after awakening. Therefore, ethical trainings help us to minimize suffering.
Nowadays I can observe bad karma in my actions, but when I observe it, it dispels by its own self. It is like a purifying state after awakening.
Metta: What does it mean to you, Ku Ye, to say that "bad karma" dispels by itself when you observe it? What evidence do you have that this negative karma is being dispelled?
Ku Ye: I'm going to try to explain myself....
For example: I can observe a thought like "She has acted in a bad way", but when I
observe this thought, it has no energy to go further than that...so I think illusion is rooted some place.
Metta: Do you consider it to be "bad karma" to think "she has acted in a bad way"? And, what is the "illusion" to which you are referring?
Ku Ye: The illusion is our false identity, and I think illusion has an inertia. It is like a force that leads thoughts, words and actions. Now I know who I am and I live it all the time, but I observe that inertia. I don't know if you can understand me?
Metta: I think so. This helps. If I understand you correctly, this dynamic is described in the Hindu tradition as "prarabdha karma"** and represents the unwinding of residual karmic momentum after the experience of Realization.
** "Prarabdha" literally means "commenced" and in this context refers to karmic effects that
have already begun and cannot be stopped, just as the potter's wheel continues spinning even
after there is no more input from the potter.
I also agree completely that it is the power of observation that makes the difference, that helps to root out the false sense of identity.
This is why I emphasize the importance of paying attention:
When we observe our thoughts, words and actions, we begin to recognize that we are not limited to or by them, no?
Ku Ye: It's a pleasure to read you. I fully agree....
Metta: (smiling) It is like looking into a mirror, is it not?
Ku Ye: Well, I like to say it is like being a mirror.
I mean when I observe something, I am not observing something: I'm presence for this something.
Ku Ye: My partner, who is here with me, would like to ask you a question, if possible.
Metta: Certainly! I would be honored, any time....
Ku Ye: She says: "I fully agree with you both, and ask why sometimes presence is more strong and other times less?"
Metta: Good question. Variations in the strength and clarity of Presence are simply a matter of how much the illusory identity has dissolved. The less the illusion, the greater the clarity of Presence.
As I see it, each of us has an ego with which our essential Identity is associated in space and time. But, this ego is not inherently evil or wicked. It is simply limited and, like any tool or a knife, it can serve a useful function, or it can cause great harm.
In its functional role, the ego allows us to walk and talk and hold down a job and pay our bills. In this sense, the ego and the sense of identity we hold about ourselves is like
a coil with a bright light shining inside. The greater the illusion and the stronger the sense of false identity, the more tightly coiled the spring -- and the more dim the light.
However, when we see through the illusion and the false sense of an independent and separate self, the coil begins to relax and open up, and the light of Essence shines through as Presence -- naturally radiant, clear and bright.
Ku Ye: Dear Metta, thank you very much for this wonderful
sharing. It was a pleasure, and I do not want to take more of your time....Maybe we can still keep in touch? It's wonderful to share these beautiful things with people like you....I spend so much time answering questions....Thank you again, Metta.
:-)
Metta: You and your dear friend are most welcome, Ku Ye. I very much appreciate sharing this time together with you both and I, too, treasure the opportunity to reflect on this deeper aspect of our human experience.
Awakening into Awareness
Insight Mentoring with Metta Zetty
Copyright © 2002
Metta Zetty
All Rights Reserved.
Reprinted with permission.
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